Green tea extract- 400mg before and during.
Dosage and time schedule:
Dosage and time schedule:
There's more to talk about, but I am tired. This should do for now. Don't forget water and electrolytes, and KEEP YOUR BODY TEMPERATURE DOWN.
Dosage and time schedule:
Racemic ALA- 200mg before MDMA dose and every hour of roll.
The neurotoxic effects of MDMA are overhyped on reddit and the scientific community at large, and the neurotoxicity is much more open to debate than people are willing to talk about from a scientific standpoint. From a behavioral standpoint, I see more of an impact from LSD use than MDMA, and LSD is non-toxic and perfectly safe compared to MDMA supposedly.
Melatonin - Melatonin is created from serotonin. Your body uses it to control sleep/wake cycles. It is also a very powerful antioxidant. After using MDMA, your serotonin levels will be low, and your melatonin levels will be affected. Taking a melatonin supplement before bed will help you sleep, but will also help scavenge any oxidative substances your other antioxidants have missed.
It's interesting to note that melatonin lowers body temperature by up to half a degree Celsius at the suggested dosage.
Dextroamphetamine every so often. Kratom every week or two. Marijuana on occasion with friends. Lots of different nootropics. I take Xanax sometimes, usually just for long 9-15 hour plane rides. Salvia a number of different occasions, but haven't for a while. I've tried various other opiates/opioids. I've tried coke, but did not like it. NOS a few times, but not regularly. I am going to be trying psilocybin for the first time soon. I am looking forward to it! And I am a craft beer guy, as well as home-brewer, so I drink a lot of beer. So it's mostly nootropics and kratom for me, with the occasional MDMA, D-amphetamine, and weed. Sounds good. Thanks! 1 more reply.
There is a lot of evidence for measurable cognitive deficits due to MDMA use.
Did you still have the side effects, or nothing at all?
I've never seen any post about people preloading with anti-oxidants when using adderall or anything like that so perhaps I'm wrong.
I still think that much of research conducted on MDMA is biased, to some degree. It's an illegal drug worldwide, and there really isn't much funding for studies that show positive benefits associated with it's use. It's not that MDMA is compley harmless... but its really hard to find control groups for some of these studies. What would the results be of some of these studies if they were conducted comparing individuals in different economic classes, or races, or by job?
I assume that you "lost the magic?" Out of curiosity, what made your realize it? Did taking MDMA no longer result in any effects?
It contained a decent lit review, but zero meta-analysis. No funnel plots. No power analysis or regression modelling. Publication bias is never even mentioned. The body of literature surrounding MDMA-induced neurotoxicity is large enough that a systemic publication bias could not only be detected, but quantified to a certain degree. It seems the accusations of publication bias they throw around are anecdotal, unsubstantiated and used to further their antiestablishment narrative. 5 more replies.
Acetyl-L-carnitine - Is synergistic with alpha lipoic acid, and protects against oxidative stress. Has been shown to prevent MDMA induced neurotoxicity.
Dosage and time schedule: CoQ10- 100mg before.
Would mixing the supplements needed throughout the night in say a bottle of grapefruit juice be effective? Or would they somehow interact negatively with each other in solution? Maybe this could reduce some of the complexity.
I think the difference is that MDMA releases serotonin, then oxidized dopamine takes over and goes into the serotonin holes. The second part is the actual nuerotoxic part.
Ok, I did promise that I would make another post regarding supplementation to mitigate MDMA induced neurotoxicity. I have just been putting it off. Since my last post, I have gathered more information regarding my theory about MDA metabolism being the main cause of MDMA's neurotoxic effects. I will try to not get into that in this post, and keep this mostly about supplementation. As seems to be the norm with me, this may be long winded. Obviously everything I put on this list is not necessary. I will be placing supplements into different categories, with reasonings and references. I will let you decide which ones will be a part of your regimen. Essential Supplements:
Most of this is about oxidative damage caused by free radicals produced in the process of breaking down dopamine. Since most amphetamines release dopamine (adderall more than MDMA) pretty much all of this could apply to that as well.
Actually, yes. I have different ones in each pocket. I am overly cautious, though. You don't need all the ones I mentioned. Before and after will always be better than nothing.
The neurotoxic effects of MDMA are overhyped on reddit.
Tried some piracetam and had horrible headaches every time. Could have been the quality but I did read it's one of the side effects. I only did it for a few days and just a tiny bit at a time so I don't think I did enough to alter my situation.
Just speedy effects and then pissed off a lot. I gave up after the 4 or 5th try. Mind you this was after 3 solid years of hitting it pretty hard. Maybe I can give it go again in a few years.
My favorite book on the topic is Ecstasy the complete guide which was given to me for free at a MAPS fundraiser.
Alpha Lipoic Acid - This is one that everyone should be taking. It is a powerful antioxidant that scavenges reactive oxygen and nitrogen species. It also has a nice benefit of regenerating other vitamins, like C, after redox cycling. It exists in two enantiomers, R-ALA and S-ALA. R-ALA is the biologically active isomer that we are looking for. Most supplements are racemic, or a mix of both. Racemic ALA does not reach as high of plasma levels as R-ALA, nor does it stay in the blood as long. It's half life is very short, ~30min. If that is all you can find, it's much better than nothing. R-ALA by itself is very unstable, and is not suitable for supplementation. This is where bonding it to sodium comes into play. Na-R-ALA, or sodium R alpha lipoic acid, allows for stable delivery of just the dextrorotory isomer of ALA. Here is a study on the benefits of Na-R-ALA. And here is the study showing that ALA prevented MDMA induced neurotoxicity, even though body temperatures still rose.
Emergen-C packet- (1,000mg vitamin C) 1 hour before and during.
Would someone be so kind as to generate a so called grocery list for fellow rollers who would like to protect themselves but dont exactly know where to get the essential supplements listed here? I'm all about the idea of supplementing but honestly have no idea what to even look for when trying to purchase most of this stuff. Thank you friends!
Bioavailable magnesium supplement - MDMA induces a release of extracellular glutamate in the hippocampus. Glutamate is the body's primary excitatory neurotransmitter. It binds to NMDA receptor sites, along with glycine, opening the ion channels and allowing calcium to enter the neuron. This is how the brain sends cascading electrical signals. When the ion channels open for too long or too frequently, calcium concentrations can become too high in the neuron. This can lower the effectiveness of your ion channels, or can even cause neuronal death. Magnesium is the substance your body uses to block the channel in a voltage-dependent manner. This means that the ion channel will not allow Ca2+ to pass, even if glutamate and glycine are bound to their receptor sites. However, once the neuronal membrane's electrical potential rises to an excited state, the Mg molecule will clear the channel and allow for normal operation. Most people are deficient in magnesium as it is. Supplementing a highly bioavailable magnesium supplement will give your body the substance it needs to naturally protect itself from excitotoxicity. Here is a picture I made to illustrate. There are a number of different types of magnesium supplements. Some are not absorbed very well, other are. The most common form, oxide, is one of the worst. This is where the concept of chelation comes into play. Magnesium is a substance the readily binds to insoluble salts in the stomach and intestines. This makes it hard to absorb. However, if you chelate the magnesium molecule to a soluble amino acid, it prevents it's binding to insoluble salts, as well as opening up the possibilities for active transport. This means that fully chelated magnesium is absorbed much better by the body. There are a number of different Mg/amino acid combinations. My favorite is magnesium glycinate. This is Mg chelated to a glycine molecule. It can be found cheaply and is highly bioavailable. There is also citrate, L-theonate, oroate, taurate, lysinate, etc. I will let you decide on which one you want to try.
Grape Seed Extract - GSA is a supplement high in vitamin E and flavonoids. Vitamin E deficiency has been shown to increase the severity of MDMA induced neurotoxicity. Also, flavonoids are potent antioxidants that will help protect against lipid oxidation and reactive oxygen species.
While the work they are doing is admirable, there exists an unfortunate tendency at MAPS gatherings to dismiss all evidence of MDMA-induced neurotoxicity with anecdotal accounts of conflicts of interest, or by uttering the incantation "Ecstacy is not MDMA"
Did you lose the "fucked up" feelings? Meaning the light sensitivity, body buzz, urinary retention, jaw clenching, etc.
That is an unproven theory, one which I doubt the validity of. MDMA is not neurotoxic when injected directly in the brain, even when dopamine levels rise and serotonin is depleted. This is pretty conclusive evidence that MDMA's metabolites are the cause of 5-HT system damage. However, antioxidants will protect against any hydroxyl dopamine metabolites as well.
No, it should have no effect. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8947977 Speculation:
ALCAR- 500mg before and during.
All of the antioxidant and magnesium supplementation will also apply to amphetamine use. You will not need the grapefruit juice or 5-HTP. Also, there are other substances that will help protect specifically against dopamine toxicity. I'll have to post about that when I have some more time.
IIRC, amphetamine is metabolized by CYP2D6, making GFJ pointless, right?
Dosage and time schedule:
5-HTP (with 400mg EGCG)- 100mg before bed for 3-7 days following MDMA use.
Magnesium Glycinate- 2,000mg (200mg elemental Mg) 6 hours before, 1 hour before, and during.
Dosage and time schedule:
I spoke to Borax about it, and I think I'm going to simplify it a bit before posting there. 1 more reply.
While the literature on MDMA neurotoxicity is likely influenced by grant considerations, MAPS arguably has a greater agenda, as they are currently trying to get MDMA through stringent clinical trials. MDMA is hugely promising as a treatment for PTSD, and if all goes to plan, the MAPS staff (many of whom are MDs and psychiatrists), will be considered pioneers.
That is also correct. However, bringing a little packet of Emergen-C into a club is much easier than a bottle of fresh squeezed orange juice.
DO NOT USE 5-HTP A FEW HOURS BEFORE OR AFTER USING MDMA. It can cause serotonin syndrome. Happened to me once. Not fun.
Yes, amphetamine does not need CYP3A4 inhibition.
Oh my, I wish I had this 10yrs ago when I was a very active participant with mdma. I overused and depleted till I was wrung out and can now use no more.
Here you go, I have done a post based on this post and there there are links to recommended products after each item... http://matznerd.com/how-to-safely-take-mdma/ 1 more reply.
Dosage and time schedule: Drink some in the morning, an hour before drop, and some later in the night. Suggested Supplements:
FWIW, just the piracetam attack dose seemed to be enough to bring the magic back for me.
Supplementation is good practice, but not necessary if using high-quality MDMA in moderation.
Very cool. I had not seen that study. Thanks!
Yep, burned out those serotonin receptors.
DO NOT USE 5-HTP A FEW HOURS BEFORE OR AFTER USING MDMA.
i had a several-year break and when i came back to MD i still had what you describe.. piracetam seemed to 'hit the reset switch' for me and i can enjoy it again, your mileage may vary.
That is correct. 5-HTP should only be used once your roll is compley over.
Thanks so much, per usual incredibly helpful. Just out of curiosity, what other drugs do you do and with what frequency? Thanks!
CoQ10 - When your NMDA receptors open and allow Ca2+ to influx into the neuron, that calcium must then be pumped back out of the neuron to bring it back down to resting potential. Protein pumps are what force the Ca2+ back into the extracellular space. To do this, they need andenosine triphosphate (ATP). CoQ10 is used by your body to synthesize ATP, which will allow your protein pumps to be able to expel the excess Ca2+ more efficiently. This will protect your neurons from exitotoxicity.
Natural-based Vitamin C is far superior to ascorbic acid.
Again, I totally disagree. I have made a bunch of comments and posts now about MDMA. The amount of misinformation that I see is astounding. Many people PM me after my posts saying that they had no idea MDMA was even dangerous. If I can get people realizing the real risks behind what they do, then that is a good thing. I take MDMA myself, so I am not trying to scare people away. I simply want them to realize the risks of taking it.
Read through these links I posted the other day: /r/Drugs/comments/15ix0s/what_are_the_symptoms_of_repeated_mdma_use_in_a/c7mvi4i.
Grape seed extract- 100mg before and during.
Green Tea Extract (EGCG) - Is a potent antioxidant and diuretic. It will help with the urinary retention arising from MDMA induced vasopressin release.
Somehow I can't seem to understand most of this post. Is there a more layman's way to say it?
I'm not against the sentiment but are you guys actually taking handfuls of vitamins into nightclubs with you?
It's possible that they would degrade in the acidic juice.
Melatonin- 5-10mg before bed (Keep in mind we are using a higher dose here for it's antioxidant properties. Normal dosages should be. 5mg to 1mg.).
Bummer. I thought that this was going to be about using MDMA as a supplement. Roll as needed.
5-HTP - 5-HTP is the direct precursor to serotonin (5-HT). It is created from tryptophan in your diet using the enzyme tryptophan hydroxylase (TPH). MDMA can reduce TPH levels for weeks after use. This will make it harder for your body to produce the necessary 5-HT from normal dietary sources alone. Since 5-HTP does not need TPH, supplementing it the few days following your roll will help you body restore it's 5-HT levels. 5-HTP can pass your blood brain barrier, while 5-HT cannot. This means that when you supplement 5-HTP, you want to make sure it gets converted to 5-HT in your brain and not your periphery. The enzyme that converts 5-HTP to 5-HT is aromatic L-amino acid decarboxylase. It is found in your stomach and periphery, as well as your brain. This means that we have to inhibit it, so that your 5-HTP has time to pass your blood brain barrier. EGCG is an inhibitor of L-amino acid decarboxylase (Also known as DOPA decarboxylase). ALWAYS take EGCG with your 5-HTP to ensure that your brain is getting the serotonin, and not your periphery. Excess 5-HT in the periphery can cause heart valve damage.
Vitamin C - This is a widely known antioxidant. It will help scavenge any reactive oxygen species that get created. It has been shown to prevent MDMA induced hepatotoxicity. It has also been shown to mitigate neurotoxicity as well. I like to take Emergen-C packets with me when I am on MDMA. This gives me C, plus electrolytes and a number of other substances. It will also raise stomach acidity, which will slow absorption of MDMA through the stomach and intestines. I take Tums 30min prior to MDMA to lower the acidity and increase absorption. I also drink it throughout the night, raising my urinary acidity. This allows me to excrete much of the MDMA in my urine before it metabolizes to harmful substances.
that's why they always recommend taking it with a choline supplement to avoid the headaches :).
I'm too lazy at the moment to cite what I'm about to say (these are all in the book mentioned above, don't take my word for this), but there are multiple studies which have found no difference between MDMA users and controls. Those studies usually aren't published though ;).
This is where I start to disagree. There is much evidence of cognitive deficits with even single uses of MDMA. I know the mechanisms, and how to prevent it. Why would you not heed that advice and protect yourself as much as you can? Not only that, but it makes your roll better, and you have a 2 week long afterglow. It enhances every part of the experience.
Natural-based Vitamin C is far superior to ascorbic acid. Ascorbic acid is much less bio-available than vitamin C derived from fruits. Either get your Vitamin C from real fruit or a natural supplement.
That usually means that you are deficient in choline. Try a choline precursor like soy lecithin, CDP choline, or Alpha GPC, and see how that works.
Dosage and time schedule:
Na-R-ALA- 100mg before and every 2 hours of roll.
The editor of the book you mentioned is an MD, and compley lacks the statistical chops required to meaningfully cash out claims of publication bias. The other contributors did not exactly fill me with hope either, but I got my hands on a pirated PDF of the book anyway.
Dosage and time schedule:
I was told that when I am having anxiety from too much caffeine to drink grapefruit juice... Guess it slows metabolism of stims or something? is that right?
That's quite a lit review.
Dosage and time schedule:
MDMA no longer result in any effects?
Supplementation is good practice, but not necessary if using high-quality MDMA in moderation. Supplementation should still be used as a precaution, just because there is a decent chance the MDMA is not high-quality, and most individuals do not use MDMA in moderation.
Wow this is incredibly thorough, thanks.
I have a few things to add:
Right, I get none of that.
Grapefruit Juice - My other post spoke about CYP3A4 metabolizing MDMA to MDA using N-demethylation. MDA is MUCH more neurotoxic than MDMA, and I spoke to why before. I am not going to rehash the specifics here, but there is no doubt that any MDA in your system is bad for you. The furanocoumarins present in grapefruit juice are potent CYP3A4 inhibitors. This study showed a 90% reduction in CYP3A4 metabolism after grapefruit juice ingestion. This study measured metabolism to MDA in humans. How much of your MDMA dose gets metabolized to MDA depends on a number of different factors, like dose, re-dosing schedule, body temperature, etc. Drinking grapefruit juice will drastically inhibit this metabolism. Your MDMA plasma levels will be higher when taking GFJ, so be aware of that when selecting dosages. It also has vitamin C and will increase stomach/intestinal/urinary acidity. This will help excrete MDMA in urine unmetabolized.Xanax and grapefruit juice reddit